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I agree that we need scary, but we need scary we believe in, that we're willing to argue for -- it can't just be a tactic. I'm definitely willing to support a 3d party, but I'd prefer it be *less* quixotic or about as quixotic as, say, a Kucinich candidacy, not more so. Otherwise it's not really scary, I think.

I believe in some of what I see at the link you supply, but I mainly see a talk shop that seems more interested in the obscure quarrels they've had than in the vision they support. I just don't think they're scary, they're ... just different, avowedly radical, and unsurprisingly small. At this point, anyway.

Don't know how he strikes you, but I'd support Sanders, if he has a run in him. And I suppose I would whether or not he went 3d party (likelier) or as a primary challenger. Unfortunately, all of this feels pretty speculative.

Thanks for continuing this discussion; I'll link to it from my post if that doesn't happen on its own.

we need scary we believe in, that we're willing to argue for...

No we don't. Not yet. What we need is to halt or at least slow the juggernaut of plutocratic control of our economic reality. It doesn't matter much how we do this as long as we do it before the revolution comes.

We need to stop being, however heroically, hiowever grandly, irrelevant.

a talk shop that seems more interested in the obscure quarrels they've had than in the vision they support.

Then make them come up with a vision, like, later. We don't have enough time left to be delicate about what we support.

Sanders won't run. Wish he would. He's way more credible than Dennis.

Well, President Obama could surprise all his loyal followers when he announces his desire NOT to run for a second term. There will have been no attempt to find a primary challenger and the population will be caught off-guard. The President has burned so many bridges but is so self-adoring, he may just not want to face an anguished and angry public. I'm thinking we might be watching on tv another Dukakis head sticking out of a tank, a pompously detached Gore, or a dorky, duck hunting Kerry as we scramble last minute for somebody, anybody to go up against the republican. What do we do?

Pull an LBJ? I mean, McCarthy wasn't a "credible candidate" when he started either. Well, I don't think it'll work but whatever it takes.

Ditch the socialism and embrace Georgism (or quasi-Georgism) instead.

While there are some things that call for socialism because of wholesale market failures (e.g. health insurance and even medical care itself), the big problem in this country isn't lack of government control/ownership of the means of production (which is the def'n of socialism), it's rather parasitic rent extraction.

George, unlike Marx, saw that capitalism is a good thing, as long as there are no rents involved (or if they're heavily taxed if they are).

Best examples of rent-prone sectors these day:
* Land (it wasn't a housing bubble, it was a land bubble)
* Finance (good chunk of which is all rent)
* So-called intellectual property

Just bring up Nader in most lefty blogs. See how it goes.

"as if Obama hasn't been even worse than Bush in every
area but speechmaking."

Embarassingly overexaggerated overplayed trite careless and reckless juvenile rhetoric and outright B.S. You're whining like a pre-teen who just discovered the huge crime that mommy and daddy don't let you do everything you want to do - IT'S NOT FAIR I HATE YOU YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME.

It's no wonder we liberal-progressive-socialistics aren't taken seriously if you're an example of one.

We desperately need a strong left, not least to keep some control of the Overton Window. But it has to be a left that scares the Third Way types, not the voters. The Granola Left had the voters thoroughly turned off in the 1970's and 1980's--it was Bill Clinton who broke that hold. It ain't easy to scare the Third Way without scaring voters, and it surely isn't a matter of saying things that make us feel good.

This strategy worked so well for us in 1968 that it gave us Richard Nixon.

With a GOP House majority that just voted to end Medicare, I really don't think Obama is the enemy we need to be fighting right now.

Maybe before we try something of this scale, progessives should prove that we can accomplish something smaller - maybe anything smaller. If we can't get a resounding win for a Wisconsin Supreme Court justice with the extremely favorable circumstances we had a few weeks ago, I'm not sure we're going to get the outcome we want by throwing a monkey wrench into the 2012 presidential race.

I see your point, but why make your link for 'Socialism' a link to a tiny sect? How many readers are likely to be thrilled by this helpful front-page helpful explanation?

From July 2009 until early March 2010, HWRS was affiliated with the International Leninist Trotskyist Fraction (IFLT or FLTI). In March 2010, HWRS, together with the Communist Workers Group of New Zealand (CWG-NZ) split with the IFLT and formed a liaison committee.

Why not, instead, link to the Socialist Party USA or the mighty, global Socialist International which even has a US section, Democratic Socialists of America? I'm not endorsing any of these, merely pointing out that they're much closer to your politics than some weird Trotskyist splinter.

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